I always seem to get myself in trouble by what I say. My parents always told me that speaking my mind is not a good idea. I beg to differ. There are important things in life that one needs to be able and willing to defend. I feel strongly about abortion and contraception and about people who are trying to make them appear the same immoral act.
Before I even start I have to tell everyone who might be reading this that it is not aimed at offending anyone or disrespecting any one's way of life. If you choose to not use contraceptives, you have the right to do so, please, don't take this personally. I am going to tell the truth, though, the way I understand it from the Bible. I also am trying to address some of the comments I got on my last post.
Leila said:
"And, if you can show me ANY passage in the Bible which even implies that a barren womb or fruitless sex is a GOOD thing, please let me know."
The Bible does praise fertility and the children are called the gifts from the Lord. Sex in our marriage is by no means fruitless. We have three wonderful blessing from the Lord. We love them very much and are doing our best to raise them right and give them what they need.
I will deal with the next few quotes from Leila all at once because they actually prove my point:
'This is especially important for you to understand: There is NO "have as many kids as you can" teaching in the Catholic Church. Where are you getting that? Certainly not from any Church sources! Please don't misrepresent what the Church teaches. The Catholic Church does NOT teach that. Sorry to repeat, but I really need to know that you are clear on that so that you don't get misled or mislead others.
There are Christians who say that the Bible does not spell out "no abortion" and they are right. They use that to justify the practice of abortion. In the same way, there is no "do not use contraception" in the Bible. Nor is there a "contraception is good" in the Bible. Therefore, we extrapolate. We look at the Bible and say: Does the Lord see children as blessings or burdens? Does He see multiple children as good or bad? Does he see sterility and barrenness as positive or negative? Is our God a fruitful God or a sterile one? Does our God design our bodies correctly, or did He make a mistake in the creation that He called good'
First of all, the Bible DOES spell out 'no abortion'. I believe the 6th Commandment says 'You shall not murder'
Now, let's move to 'we extrapolate' part. You said 'We look at the Bible and say: Does the Lord see children as blessings or burdens? Does He see multiple children as good or bad? Does he see sterility and barrenness as positive or negative? Is our God a fruitful God or a sterile one? Does our God design our bodies correctly, or did He make a mistake in the creation that He called good' Let's take that argument to it's logical conclusion. If the children are blessings and not burdens, if multiple children is good , if sterility is negative, than the logical conclusion to that is having as many children as God gives is the Biblical mandate. So, when I say that the Catholic church teaches that, this is where I am getting it from. Your own argument. Furthermore, you yourself violated that by only accepting eight of those blessings and rejecting the rest of them (NO, I am not blaiming or judging, just showing where that argument leads). You used abstinence for that I use the pill. The pill does not kill the baby in me. It prevents conception. Just like abstinence. You say that the difference between the pill and the natural method is the same as, say, robbing the bank to feed your children and going to work to do the same. No, not really. Robbing the bank DIRECTLY violates 'You shall not steal' Using the pill doesn't violate any given commands, only what Catholic church extrapolates form the Bible. And we have just visited that one.
The issue here is not the use of modern contraceptives, or, rather, it's much deeper than that. It all goes back to SOLA FIDE and Catholic church's attempts to add to the finished work of Christ the good deeds of a person in order to earn salvation. Let me explain. Both Leila and I are avoiding having more children, BUT she goes an extra mile by avoiding the pill 'earning' her way to Heaven. No, it's not the only way faithful Catholics can earn some 'extra points', there are lots of things you can do. And they ARE good things. The point is, Catholic church adds these good deeds as a requirement for salvation. That's where it becomes a problem.
Again, please do not think I view children as a burden. They ARE a blessing to me. They are a gift. We are simply trying to be good stewards of God's gifts.
Olya, the only thing I can say about this (because you and I are not going to change our minds) is that you do not understand the Catholic Church at all.
ReplyDeleteWhen I teach the faith, whether to converts or Catholics, I start by saying that I will never, ever misrepresent the teachings of Protestantism. To knowingly misrepresent others' beliefs, or the teachings of their faith, would be a sin. I may disagree with you, but I won't misrepresent you.
You have misrepresented the Catholic Church's teaching here, both on a mythical mandate to "have as many children as one can" and also the ever-popular lie that Catholics "earn" their way to Heaven by "adding to the finished work of Christ."
At the very minimum, please have the respect not to speak of doctrines about which you know nothing.
I always will welcome you as a reader to my blog, but I will not stand for misrepresentation of Catholic beliefs.
Please stay tuned to my blog in the next weeks and months if you wish to hear what the Church actually DOES teach on those issues.
God bless you, Olya, as I believe your intentions are good.
Seriously? You're bashing my friend Leila AND the Catholic Church?? WHY? This is really offensive.
ReplyDeleteAnd I really think you should read the insert in your Pill box. There's a huge percentage of breakthrough ovulations on the Pill, and the other way it prevents pregnancy (besides preventing ovulation) is to cause the uterine lining to be hostile, so the fertilized egg (child with an immortal soul) doesn't implant. Have you gotten pregnant while on the Pill? That should prove it to you that you can ovulate on it. How do you know you haven't conceived other times? How is this different from abortion? I'm not trying to be rude, I just want you to be informed about what you're putting in your body.
I just recently (like 5 seconds ago) wrote a comment on Sew's bcp post from several days ago, which I ask you to please read when you have a chance.
ReplyDeleteBut more importantly, PLEASE please read Christopher West's book "The Good News about Sex and Marriage." He has a way of putting things so very simply, but the concepts are so profound. I think it will serve you well.
I will end this comment with a quote from Christopher West when I heard him speak last July:
"Many people ask me {in reference to NFP as a means of avoiding pregnancy}, 'Chris, is contracepting REALLY any different than just WAITING for the woman to be naturally infertile?' To which I respond, 'Is killing Grandma REALLY any different than just WAITING for her to naturally die?"
Beth, I specifically stated in the beginning of this post that I am NOT trying to offend ANYONE! I am sorry if it came out that way. I was using Leila as an example. My point was that Catholic Church has absolutely no Biblical basis to teach abstinence as opposed to other methods that do not involve killing of a baby, and that it‘s teaching is logically inconsistent. And I talked to a lady from my church who is a child birth educator and what she said is that though there are some newer birth control pills that might cause an early stage abortion, there are also the ones that are safe to use (including the one I am using). So, if there’s no killing of the baby is involved why is it important what method you use? I understand that since it’s the Church’s position, no argument will ever change your mind, so let’s leave it at that. Please, understand that only because the Roman church says something is biblical does NOT make it so.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, Olya, the Bible came from the Church. You would not have a New Testament at all if it were not for the bishops and Pope who approved it, and the monks who lovingly copied it/translated it over the centuries. You need to learn the history of where the Bible came from, as it did not drop out of the sky, leather-bound, and the originals no longer exist. How do you know what you have in your hands is even a good reflection of the originals? Whether you know it or not, it's because you trust that the Catholic Church took very good care of it over the many, many centuries before Protestantism came to be.
ReplyDeleteLuther decided to take the Bible out of the Church, but Jesus never intended that. If you read your Bible, you will find that He founded a Church to preach and teach (and have authority over the faithful). It wasn't till at least ten years AFTER the Lord's Ascension that the first word of the New Testament was written (by the Church, for the Church). Only a small minority of Apostles even wrote a word of Scripture, because Christ didn't tell them to write, he told them to preach and teach.
But during that time, the Church was thriving and converting and growing and loving and living for Christ. The Bible is a TREASURE, and it's the inerrant Word of God! But it's a treasure of the CHURCH. And for you to use the Bible against the very Church that gave it to you is a sad state of affairs, indeed.
I recommend Where We Got the Bible, by Rev. Henry G. Graham.
Anyway, you haven't mentioned if you will stop misrepresenting Church teaching. That was my biggest beef, and you did not address it or correct yourself.....
Blessings to you, Olya!
PS: Doesn't it bother you that you support a method of birth control that is known to cause early abortions, as your friend admitted? Even if you *think* it's not the kind you use, shouldn't you be screaming the truth to the women you know (who might be using a different kind of pill), now that you know it? These are BABIES after all, and I assume you are pro-life. So, aren't you horrified that your friends could be aborting babies unknowingly? I used the Pill for years. How many of my babies were conceived and died because of it? I won't know till Heaven. Too bad no one told me. I hope you will start to tell what you know.
Especially if the abortifacient pills are the NEWER ones, and there will be more and more of them on the market, shouldn't you start warning women now?
The Bible came from GOD, not the church. And isn't it the Luther who translated the Bible into the common tongue for his people and was prosecuted by Catholic Church for that we are talking about? Not that I have anything against Latin except for the fact that there are few who speak it. :) I know you will get really offended when I say this, try not to, it's not meant that way. Catholic church is historically known for misinterpreting the Bible, and how convenient was it that the Bible wasn't in the language most people could read for themselves.
ReplyDeleteIt's true that the Bible didn't fall out of the sky and someone had to keep copying it. Who do you think preserved the OT? Were it not the priests of the OT who Jesus spoke so harshly against? The fact that the monks copied the Bible doesn't authenticate the church's interpretation of it. I believe the Bible is teaching about the priesthood of ALL believers and will argue that here in the weeks to come. Stay tuned, if you are at all interested.
Olya, I have heard it all before, and I have rejected it (read my story on my sidebar). You are mistaken on so many levels, including the Latin language, and whether or not it was the language of the people at the time. Soooooo much more I could say. But you are talking around my points and never say anything directly to my questions except things like "the Catholic Church is known for misrepresenting the Bible".... um according to.... Protestants? That's hardly convincing to a Catholic.
ReplyDeleteThe OT priests may have been spoken harshly about, but it doesn't mean they translated the Bible wrong, or taught wrong doctrine. They sinned, like us. The Apostles were talked about harshly by Christ. Were they still able to teach correct doctrine? Were they and all the next generations able to protect the Bible and its contents? Because one is a sinner does not mean they cannot teach correctly. Your making a point that does not apply.
And, we Catholics believe in the priesthood of all believers, by the way, so again, you are unaware of what Catholics believe.
You need to read the early Church Fathers. You really do. It will blow all your suppositions out of the water.
God bless!
Leila, I am sure you have heard it all...I don't loose hope, though :)
ReplyDeleteLet me know what are the specific issues you think I am avoiding and I will address them directly to the best of my ability. I am not an educator, like yourself, just a lay church member :) I would LOVE to read more of the church fathers, right now it is not a possibilty with three kids around. I am lucky when I get to read a few blogs :)
Hi Olya! Here's an interesting blog post on Onan I thought you might enjoy reading. ..
ReplyDeletehttp://thatmarriedcouple.blogspot.com/2010/06/what-about-onan.html
Hope youre doing well!