I saw the pastor of this community church advertise a new series of sermons titled 'What's on Your Bucket List' by saying that he always wanted to ride his Harley across country. So, he invited people to come and talk about what's on their bucket list. And while I don't have anything against Harleys, an introduction like that to a whole series of sermons makes me question that church's theology right away.
Personally, I don't have a bucket list. I believe that I should live my every day like it's my last one. Not that I always do. But yesterday I got a chance to do what I always wanted. Donate blood. I know, it sounds simple. If you want to donate, why not simply go to their Center and do it. Well, M didn't like the idea (don't ask me why, I don't know) so I never did. Well, yesterday we went to the Mall, because M has been thinking about buying these winter tiers for my van (ours are high quality but have a LOT of miles on them and driving conditions in the winter here are less than perfect.) We don't have the money, but Sears had these 5 tires that would fit, that are normally out of our price range, on sale for 110$ each. So he finally decided to go for it. He was just looking at them at the discount rack when the manager comes up to him and says that he needs to clear the rack NOW and that he will give it to him for 45$ each! Can you believe it? He didn't have to ask M twice. So, while all this was going on, I took the kids to the indoor playground right outside of Sears. They were playing and I was staring at the 'Guns'n'Hoses' annual blood drive, a friendly competition between police and fire dpt. to see who can raise the most blood. I really wanted to go and donate. It was right there, I didn't even have to go anywhere. I knew M would say no, plus someone had to watch the kids. Well, M comes out of Sears happy as I have ever seen him and starts telling me about this great deal. And I ask if he would take the kids while I go donate. He was too happy to say no.
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On another subject, I have mentioned these Catholic blogs I have been reading. I have to admit that being a user of birth control myself and thinking that it is better to take a pill to prevent ovulation than it is to have 10 kids and live on welfare, it's hard to read these blogs that call you baby killer for that. I understand that these women are struggling with their infertility. The desperately want a baby so it's hard for them to understand why someone would choose to have three and stop at that. On the other hand, you know what the people who use natural method are called, right? They are called PARENTS. So, one of the ladies is blogging about having to quit work and not being able to train her replacement so that they qualify for free maternity care since her health insurance expires in June and they barely make the cutout. Why not stay, make the money and buy your own insurance? I don't know. They have their reasons, I am sure. But that's exactly what we are trying to avoid by using birth control. And while I would never even consider abortion, birth control is a responsible choice. So, I wish they didn't go on on on about us evil woment on birth control.
Olya, actually, the lady you mention was FIRED, she didn't quit.
ReplyDeleteI used to use birth control, but then I studied the Bible, and Church history. I now have eight children (was going to quit at three), but I am not on welfare, and everyone one of them was planned.... NFP is as reliable than the Pill. It is not, not, not the old rhythm method. That is a myth and a misunderstanding of the methods. :)
Anyway, you might want to research Margaret Sanger (who brought us widespread birth control and founded Planned Parenthood). Acceptance of contraception in a nation always, always leads to acceptance of abortion. Because abortion is the "back-up" to the promise of contraception ("hey, we want sex with no babies, but what if the baby slips through anyway?"), and even the US Supreme Court acknowledged that fact in their Casey v. Planned Parenthood ruling (in 1992?). They said that we can't outlaw abortion because the culture has built all social and other relationships around the promise of abortion should contraception fail.
I am not judging you, but please don't judge us until you have really looked into the issue of birth control, and its history, especially in light of Christian history. Have you done a Bible study on birth control? Many Protestants have and here are two resources to see what they found: Open Embrace (a book by a married Protestant couple) and The Bible and Birth Control (great resource, non-Catholic author, a minister I believe).
Ultimately, contraception says that "God did a great job designing our bodies, EXCEPT he forgot one thing! We humans need to correct what he forgot. So, we will either mutilate our healthy God-given body parts to make them broken, as in tubals and vasectomies, or pump our healthy, working bodies with chemicals which make our fertility derail and malfunction, or we will strap on shields and barriers to make love to our husbands, as if we are going to war." Something is not right there, you know?
Christians must ask ourselves: Are we getting our views on contraception from the Planned Parenthood culture, or from the Word of God? We must examine our consciences on that.
And, if you can show me ANY passage in the Bible which even implies that a barren womb or fruitless sex is a GOOD thing, please let me know. Everything I read in the Bible says children are great blessings (and MORE children are even greater blessings!), and never once are they seen as something to be avoided in a marriage. Barrenness is seen as very unfortunate. So, where, biblically, does God imply that married couples should make their love sterile, and keep their wombs empty?
I don't see it biblically. I see just the opposite. I would love to see the passages that I am missing, which imply "that birth control is the responsible choice", but no one has yet shown them to me. Can you?
I have truly enjoyed having you on the blogs! You are a very sweet and respectful woman, and a sister in Christ. :) And you have beautiful children. :)
Thanks for letting me infiltrate your blog. :)
PS: I don't mean to imply that because NFP is reliable, that only PLANNED children are blessings. Being open to life means loving any and children that God sends. It opens one's heart! After all, where in the Bible does it say that children are only supposed to be here if they are "planned"? Marriage implies sex, and sex brings babies. That is God's design and it is beautiful. He also designed a woman's system to have certain normal rhythms of fertility and infertile times. It's okay to understand and work with God's design, but it's not okay to derail it or try to go around it and fundamentally change it. His design is perfect. Breathtakingly perfect.
ReplyDeletePPS: I hope none of that came off as harsh! I have to use caps (which sounds like I am yelling) because I can't remember how to do the italics on the blog comments. :) But, I assure you I meant all this in a friendly way, and it's a friendly challenge. I really am serious about wanting to know where contraception or limiting children is even implied in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteOur God is a life giving God. But if you do not believe in the dignity of every human person then you just don't get it.
ReplyDelete1.) Few realize that up until 1930, all Protestant denominations agreed with the Catholic Church’s teaching condemning contraception as sinful. At its 1930 Lambeth Conference, the Anglican church, swayed by growing social pressure, announced that contraception would be allowed in some circumstances. Soon the Anglican church completely caved in, allowing contraception across the board. Since then, all other Protestant denominations have followed suit. Today, the Catholic Church alone proclaims the historic Christian position on contraception.
Also, The Bible mentions at least one form of contraception specifically and condemns it. Coitus interruptus, was used by Onan to avoid fulfilling his duty according to the ancient Jewish law of fathering children for one’s dead brother. "Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.’ But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife he spilled the semen on the ground, lest he should give offspring to his brother. And what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he slew him also" (Gen. 38:8–10).
The biblical penalty for not giving your brother’s widow children was public humiliation, not death (Deut. 25:7–10). But Onan received death as punishment for his crime. This means his crime was more than simply not fulfilling the duty of a brother-in-law. He lost his life because he violated natural law, as Jewish and Christian commentators have always understood. For this reason, certain forms of contraception have historically been known as "Onanism," after the man who practiced it, just as homosexuality has historically been known as "Sodomy," after the men of Sodom, who practiced that vice (cf. Gen. 19).
Contraception was so far outside the biblical mindset and so obviously wrong that it did not need the frequent condemnations other sins did. Scripture condemns the practice when it mentions it. Once a moral principle has been established in the Bible, every possible application of it need not be mentioned. For example, the general principle that theft is wrong was clearly established in Scripture; but there’s no need to provide an exhaustive list of every kind of theft. Similarly, since the principle that contraception is wrong has been established by being condemned when it’s mentioned in the Bible, every particular form of contraception does not need to be dealt with in Scripture in order for us to see that it is condemned.
I was not for birthcontrol way before I ever knew I was barren. I actually married my husband letting him know I did not believe in BCP and it would not be in my body or in our marriage. It wasn't my desire for children that made me not want to be on the pill, I knew I didn't want to be on it way before I ever wanted children.
I'm sorry that there is a choice to accept convenience over responsibility that is not life giving.
Really when you hang around Catholic blogs, especially us, you are NOT going to get luke warm Catholicism! And I pray to God he opens my womb and doesn't shut it! Bring it on! I have more little Catholics running around! I want my babies and I want them all to raise in the glory of His name! I pray to God that I can glorify Him in my vocation as a mother and not sterilize myself and expect in return to bear the fruit.
If it was too much for you to handle you should have taken a break from us. But now I feel like we have welcomed you into our home and you just told us how hideous our beautiful home looked to you. I'm sorry, but I can not drown the sound of your conscious so don't put it back on us like we are calling you a baby killer. We are merely stating the lies of the pill.
Leila, you are right, the children ARE a blessing from the Lord! And if you believe that, you should not be using the natural method, either, for it is a way to prevent pregnancy. You use abstinence and I use a pill that prevents ovulation. Trust me, there is a HUGE difference between killing a child growing in your womb and preventing the ovulation.
ReplyDeleteSue, I am sorry you felt that I was disrespecting your beautiful homes. It was far from my mind. I did NOT comment on your post when you felt like you needed room to vent. You have to give me the right to say what I believe about the matter on MY blog, though. I know, it's not what you believe and that's not how you feel and I am sorry we disagree. I have to tell you, I was hurt by the tone of your message. I choose not to hold it against you, you obviously feel very strongly about the subject. And so do I. If you prefer I do NOT read your blog and/or leave any comments, feel free to let me know. It will be a loss, but it's YOUR blog and I respect your decision.
My husband works 16 hour days to support his family to the best of his ability. He takes it very hard when we can't fix our car and the kids and I have to walk in a 100F weather or when we have to wait till next pay check to buy them milk. Our first two children were not planned, in fact, Daniel was conceived while nursing AND using birth control. So we are willing to take God's gifts when He gives them to us. I hope and pray you don't take this personally and allow me the right to have my own opinion even if it disagrees with the opinion of the church you follow.
I would like to comment on the example you use with Onan and I am hoping to do that soon. Right now the kids want my attention so I have to quit.
ReplyDeleteHi Olya, just one small correction, and then I MUST go to my children....
ReplyDeleteNFP is not like contraception in the same way that robbing a bank to feed your children is not like going to work to feed your children. Ends are the same (feeding our children), means are different. It's okay to "avoid" a pregnancy, but we do it according to GOD's design. WE don't close the womb, only God does (periods of infertility that He built in).
I still would love those biblical passages, about when it would be okay to change God's design and render ourselves sterile. Of course God can work a miracle even if we block him with birth control, but that is not what He asks of us, is it?
Anyway, remember, it's not just "the church I follow" but all Christian churches since the beginning who taught this. Only since Planned Parenthood mentality came in have the Protestant churches caved (not all Protestants, thank God).
(Ironically, you just commented on my blog that you are glad my bishop is staying strong and not caving on the abortion issue. Why do you not say the same about the Church not caving on the contraception issue? Both are the historical Christian position, and both need to be defended and declared boldly.)
robbing a bank is breaking a law. The only time the Bible deals with preventing pregnancy (besides murder, which abortion IS) is when a man is trying to avoid raising children to his brother, and there were cultural reasons to that (children supporting parents when they are old) I applaud the Catholic church for taking a stand against murder. But do you have any idea how harmful 'have as many kids as you can' teaching can be? How many parents in my country abandon their children because they can't feed them? How many children starve to death?
ReplyDeleteI promise I will post on this again tomorrow what Rahcael is sleeping and the boys are playing outside. It's the only time I can think and post more then three words at a time. I have to turn the computer off and walk to the YMCA (I volunteer on Thursdays)
PS. Just like I can't give you any passages dealing w/birth control you can' give me any direct commands from God to not do it that doesn't deal with said issue of raising an offspring to brother.
Olya, this has to be the last thing I say on this, as we are talking past each other.
ReplyDeleteMy point about the bank robbing wasn't about breaking a law or not. It was about moral means and immoral means to the same end.
Sew addressed Onan and already rebutted what you are claiming. Besides, Catholics do not have the right to "personally interpret" the Bible as Protestants believe they do. We submit to what the Church has taught for over 2,000 years, and the Bible is in harmony with those teachings.
This is especially important for you to understand: There is NO "have as many kids as you can" teaching in the Catholic Church. Where are you getting that? Certainly not from any Church sources! Please don't misrepresent what the Church teaches. The Catholic Church does NOT teach that. Sorry to repeat, but I really need to know that you are clear on that so that you don't get misled or mislead others.
There are Christians who say that the Bible does not spell out "no abortion" and they are right. They use that to justify the practice of abortion. In the same way, there is no "do not use contraception" in the Bible. Nor is there a "contraception is good" in the Bible. Therefore, we extrapolate. We look at the Bible and say: Does the Lord see children as blessings or burdens? Does He see multiple children as good or bad? Does he see sterility and barrenness as positive or negative? Is our God a fruitful God or a sterile one? Does our God design our bodies correctly, or did He make a mistake in the creation that He called "good"?
We also look at the long and definitive history of the Christian teaching on this, for twenty centuries.
We look at everything above and we make our conclusion (basically, do we hold the traditional Christian understanding or not? And if not, then Christians have been wrong for centuries, from the very beginning, and Planned Parenthood has opened our eyes to how wrong we were).
The burden is on you to show that the mind and heart of God is FOR contraception, since you are the one deviating from Christian teaching on this, and since you have yet to find a Bible reference which even implies that God would smile upon a married couple purposely sterilizing themselves. There is not a single Biblical principle which favors barrenness over fruitfulness. Not one.
Blessings, and I will have to let you have the last word, since I promised I wouldn't get into the Catholic/Protestant debates. :)
PS: Let me clarify in case I was unclear: The people who say there are no specific words that say "NO ABORTION" in the Bible, to justify abortion, are very misguided. Very. But the Bible doesn't need to spell it out with those two words in order for us to know the heart and mind of God on this issue (and the Church has taught this truth since the beginning, just like the truth about contraception).
ReplyDeleteOyla, I have enjoyed having you on my blog and I am sorry you are feeling attacked here. I don't believe that anyone has called you evil because you use BCP though, I will say that. Birth control is one of the defining issues Catholics struggle with today. I also used to use bcps - much to my deep regret. I learned recently that many BCPs actually cause early abortions, in other words, the embryo can not implant in the uterine lining since the BCP makes it inhospitable. So there is a conception but no implantation without a woman even knowing it. This gave me great sorrow knowing that I might have conceived and aborted children I didn't know about while using bcps and I pray for God's forgiveness in that. I would suggest that you ask your doctor "how does it work" to learn how bcps work to "prevent pregnancy", that's what I did and the truth was tragic.
ReplyDeleteThe women in this group are not passionate about this subject because we are infertile, we're passionate about it because we're orthodox. NFP has gotten a bad reputation because a lot of people that have practiced it did not do it well, and blamed the method rather than their own lack of commitment to it. Truly a woman only ovulates 2-3 days a month. Abstaining during those days WILL prevent a pregnancy. A couple does not HAVE to use NFP. If they can define ovulation days (by kit or other methods) and then either use those days (or not), it is up to them. The point is not to use anything artificial to prevent pregnancy. I used to pose the same question (as you did to Leila), what is the difference between abstanence and taking a pill? Both seem to be controlling the outcome right? Not really. NFP still leaves room for God's choice. If HE decides to create a child by allowing conception anyway, then HIS will overrides ours - which is as it should be. Perhaps he has a child that is meant for you. Artificial birth control takes away any say God might have since it overrides the natural laws that he laid at the foundation of creation. It is putting our WILL over HIS - artificially and saying NO to any gift of children that He might want to give us.
Lastly, our society is hyper sexual. We don't want to abstain from sex - at all - ever. Letting our sexual inclinations run wild is really, actually, bad for us. It's irresponsible. People get bored, use each other, fornicate, have affairs, need porn., divorce, etc. Keeping sex special is important in our faith, it's sacramental. It's a physical act of complete self-giving within a marriage that can not be done when there are contraceptive barriers. Our church does encourage RESPONSIBLE discernment in whether or not to add children to the family (contrary to popular belief). We just include GOD and respect HIS natural laws in our decision making.
I hope this helps you understand our position a little bit more...though...I don't expect you to change your mind either. It took a LOT for me to change mine! 'Just pray about it, and see what HE says. Blessings.
Hi Olya. This first comment does not directly apply to what is written here, but I think it's interesting anyway. I've been told before that the Bible says we should have as many kids as we can because they are a blessing to us. However, when we start looking at the large families in the Old Testament, I see men who are married to more than one woman at the same time and also have concubines producing children. I admit that the Bible does not give a complete listing of all the kids Leah may have had (surely there were a few girls in there other than Tamar!), as well as Jacob's other 3 women. The same for Abraham after Sarah's death, and so forth. The point, at least to me, is that most guys had big families by means of more than one woman.
ReplyDeleteDeath in childbirth has always been a huge risk for any woman - including today. My daughter would have died during her last pregnancy without modern medicine, just as her grandmother did die when she delivered twins. My daughter has been advised that she might be able to carry and deliver another child, but her chances now are much slimmer. She did everything right in both of her pregnancies. It was difficult for her to concieve both times, and she almost lost her life the second time. Children ARE a blessing from the Lord, but ONE child, or two or even three can be as much of a blessing as 8 or 10. God is the one who decides how many kids a couple will have, not the couple. There are no accidental people running around, nor are any who are supposed to be here missing. God is sovereign over conception - not a man or woman, no matter if they use birth control or not.
Children here on earth at this time are important, no doubt about that. What seems to get lost in a lot of the conversation is the importance of the relationship between the husband and wife. Christ refers to himself as the bridegroom and the church is the bride. No children mentioned there. And we understand from Christ's words that there will be no children in the new earth and heaven (no giving or taking in marriage). How often do women focus more on their children than their relationship to their husband?
I am also reminded of God's words (I think it is in Isaiah - I'm not at home and my Bible isn't here) that he will provide "children" for those who don't have them via 'spiritual' children. I think of M, the woman we work with in Kherson - she has dozens of spiritual children who love her as a mother.
Just some thoughts. I'm glad we had 3 kids (3 kids in 3 years!). I probably would have gone bonkers if we'd had any more. I'm glad I've got 2 grandkids and I hope my sons eventually marry and have a couple more each. But all of that is in God's perfect will. I rest in that!
Danya, thank you for your kindness. Let me tell you, though, that if God decides to give you a child, no pill will stop Him. I have a beautiful living proof of that. His name is Daniel. He was conceived while nursing (which has not happened to me again, in fact I haven't been using BC while nursing since) AND taking the pill. No human effort can override the will of the Almighty, All Powerful God!
ReplyDeleteCindie, great point about death in child birth/infancy. I think we forget how modern medicine changed our lives. I agree, 1 child is no less blessing that 5. And none of them are accidents. Thank you for pointing that out
ReplyDeleteNo human effort can override the will of the Almighty, All Powerful God!
ReplyDeleteI’m honestly not sure what you are saying so I'm asking for clarification. I do believe the free will of man often interrupts the plan of God. Yes, he is Almighty and through Him all things are possible, but He gave us free will to choose to love Him or to choose to abandon Him. So is abortion (which can be accomplished via mifepristone – i.e., just a little ole pill) the will of God? Does that mean if God really wanted those children born, this human effort to abort wouldn’t stop it?
Ann, I will try explaining what I mean, not over weekend as we have company and church, but on Monday.
ReplyDeleteOyla, make no mistake, the pill has stopped the conception and implantation of many children that God intended to give to us. Otherwise, why would people use it? I believe your circumstance of becoming pregnant while on the pill is highly unusual esp. if you if you look at the stats. Human effort most certainly CAN override God's will. We do it all the time - since the fall of man. He allows us to sin, He does not force his love upon us but draws us into HIM. If we refuse to accept His invitation, it is our loss. Blessings
ReplyDeleteI'm in total agreement with you, Olya. And I have to disagree with Danya on Who is in charge of how many people there on the earth and who they are. I had TWO children using birth control. I personally know a woman who had her tubes tied after a number of miscarriages and about 10 years later, became pregnant and carried the child to term. I state again - there are NO accidental people running around on this earth, nor are any who were supposed to be here missing. God doesn't sit up there in heaven and say, "Where is so-n-so? Oh yeah, he was never conceived. Guess I'll have to change my plans." Nor does He say, "Now where did THAT person come from? Guess I'll have to include him in my plans." A god who's will can be over ridden by a mere human is no god, just a reflection of that human's self image, wishes and fears.
ReplyDelete